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	<title>Comments on: D&amp;D 4th Edition</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/</link>
	<description>Musings on Electronics and Culture</description>
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		<title>By: Cineris</title>
		<link>http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-26332</link>
		<dc:creator>Cineris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/#comment-26332</guid>
		<description>@kj:

4th Edition&#039;s &quot;Unaligned&quot; is a godsend, and alignment is and always has been rubbish. Alignment is for pre-teens that simply aren&#039;t developed enough as a person or a gamer to appreciate the depth of character or moral complexity that can exist in a world where you&#039;re not trying to pigeonhole characters into objective categories based on subjective characteristics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@kj:</p>
<p>4th Edition&#8217;s &#8220;Unaligned&#8221; is a godsend, and alignment is and always has been rubbish. Alignment is for pre-teens that simply aren&#8217;t developed enough as a person or a gamer to appreciate the depth of character or moral complexity that can exist in a world where you&#8217;re not trying to pigeonhole characters into objective categories based on subjective characteristics.</p>
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		<title>By: kj</title>
		<link>http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-26330</link>
		<dc:creator>kj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/#comment-26330</guid>
		<description>[quote comment=&quot;&quot;][...] and came across some links over from ENWorld. Specifically, I found a link to a thread a commenter (Agent Oracle) on my 4th Edition Wishlist post made. It&#8217;s interesting to see the breakdown of people over [...][/quote]


Gygax preserved and expanded the Class System in order to encourage teamwork, the core of D&amp;D. If you&#039;re a fighter you look to the thief to help you out, you help the physically weaker wizard, the cleric heals etc etc. You&#039;re supposed to be restricted in some things and better at others, that&#039;s what ensures mutual protection, its also more fun, you cheer on the druid when he talks to plants, he cheers you on when you stab the troll. ALIGHNMENT is the most important thing in D&amp;D. Alignment is what orients someone to the game world, it fills the vacuum of completely undirected play. ALSO it aids players in making decisions. If you&#039;re LG you have a starting point for what you do and why, it&#039;s not an after thought, it is The Thought that helps a player PLAY. It&#039;s also what complicates the game session and leads to those really unforgettable, surprising moments. Especially when people don&#039;t say HI, I&#039;m a Neutral Good Halfling nice to meet you, and play it like it should be an internal, complex worldview. I think people that are against the alignment system aren&#039;t up to the challenge it presents to a game player. It&#039;s part of the game system, just like fireball radius, the distance bows can shoot. Its an intelligent and difficult variable that good gamers know how to enjoy and work with. Fourth Edition&#039;s &quot;unaligned&quot; is a cop-out pure and simple. It&#039;s for pre-teens that simply aren&#039;t developed enough as a person or a gamer to appreciate it and aren&#039;t smart enough to understand it. Fourth edition isn&#039;t Gygax&#039;s D&amp;D, it&#039;s HASBRO&#039;s MBAs and VPs of Marketing looking for a way to make MAGIC the GATHERING into a series of books because that&#039;s what makes them the most LOOT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>%name said:</p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/#comment-"><p>
[...] and came across some links over from ENWorld. Specifically, I found a link to a thread a commenter (Agent Oracle) on my 4th Edition Wishlist post made. It&#8217;s interesting to see the breakdown of people over [...]</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Gygax preserved and expanded the Class System in order to encourage teamwork, the core of D&amp;D. If you&#8217;re a fighter you look to the thief to help you out, you help the physically weaker wizard, the cleric heals etc etc. You&#8217;re supposed to be restricted in some things and better at others, that&#8217;s what ensures mutual protection, its also more fun, you cheer on the druid when he talks to plants, he cheers you on when you stab the troll. ALIGHNMENT is the most important thing in D&amp;D. Alignment is what orients someone to the game world, it fills the vacuum of completely undirected play. ALSO it aids players in making decisions. If you&#8217;re LG you have a starting point for what you do and why, it&#8217;s not an after thought, it is The Thought that helps a player PLAY. It&#8217;s also what complicates the game session and leads to those really unforgettable, surprising moments. Especially when people don&#8217;t say HI, I&#8217;m a Neutral Good Halfling nice to meet you, and play it like it should be an internal, complex worldview. I think people that are against the alignment system aren&#8217;t up to the challenge it presents to a game player. It&#8217;s part of the game system, just like fireball radius, the distance bows can shoot. Its an intelligent and difficult variable that good gamers know how to enjoy and work with. Fourth Edition&#8217;s &#8220;unaligned&#8221; is a cop-out pure and simple. It&#8217;s for pre-teens that simply aren&#8217;t developed enough as a person or a gamer to appreciate it and aren&#8217;t smart enough to understand it. Fourth edition isn&#8217;t Gygax&#8217;s D&amp;D, it&#8217;s HASBRO&#8217;s MBAs and VPs of Marketing looking for a way to make MAGIC the GATHERING into a series of books because that&#8217;s what makes them the most LOOT.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-26295</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 04:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/#comment-26295</guid>
		<description>I personally just want undead to stop being so over powered.  lousy necropolitan tainted scholar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally just want undead to stop being so over powered.  lousy necropolitan tainted scholar.</p>
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		<title>By: Surgoshan</title>
		<link>http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-26213</link>
		<dc:creator>Surgoshan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 07:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/#comment-26213</guid>
		<description>Heh.  Dude, you called it.  Hilarious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh.  Dude, you called it.  Hilarious.</p>
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		<title>By: Moonglum</title>
		<link>http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-26031</link>
		<dc:creator>Moonglum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/#comment-26031</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s nothing wrong with alignment, it&#039;s one of those handy GM gizmos that help The Man Behind The (cardboard) Curtain make things run. 

The real slippery thing about D&amp;D alignments is simply the weasel words. Everyone knows what Good is. Everyone knows what Chaos is. But people rarely _agree_ on the definitions. This is what a GM is for. (ie: to railroad) It&#039;s your sandbox, set the definitions.

Any campaign should include a simple primer on what (for the world) constitutes the alignments. This way people can actually choose their role knowledgeably (What? you mean conversion by the sword, then immediate murder to prevent rescidivism isn&#039;t Good?)and can play it. If they want to violate their roles, fine, sometimes that can be dramatic role-playing. Oh! The towering angst and self-loathing! Those boundaries can serve wonderful purposes. 

Here&#039;s a thumbnail (only) of how I usually set it for my players:

Lawful: believes orderliness is the fundamental virtue, big on hierarchy, obedience, following rules

Good: acts to promote the well-being (weal) for as many as possible, reluctant to kill, harm, or destroy unless it clearly improves the lot of many more than it harms, or is in plain self-defence against aggression.

Chaos: champions freedoms, small and large. Disrespectful of rigid legalistic mechanisms that strangle life into mere existence. 

Evil: happy to gratify self at the expense of others. Often expresses as greed, unethical ambitions, or delight in the destruction of others.

=-=

I find this arrangement easy and simple and it leads to some interesting dynamics. Lawful cultures should tend to grow larger than chaotic ones, as agriculture and sanitation are very bound to order. Good cultures should out-populate evil ones since promoting the weal of many should bulk up the crowd quicker than just looking out for number one. With very little stretching you get a passable medieval knock-off world; stable peace-loving realms which grow about as well as technology, magic, and the forces of nature will allow; several colourful dashes of misfits, tinkers, highwaymen, hobos, freebooters, gypsies, circus people, dastards, and elves; and a reasonably large but not overwhelming evil empire to oppose. 

If you can&#039;t make heroic fantasy out of that, you&#039;re not trying.

If the players can&#039;t make sense of it, write it out. They have to know the world if they&#039;re going to pretend to live in it. Alignment helps. It&#039;s unrealistic, but it&#039;s a crib that works, if you put a little effort in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s nothing wrong with alignment, it&#8217;s one of those handy GM gizmos that help The Man Behind The (cardboard) Curtain make things run. </p>
<p>The real slippery thing about D&amp;D alignments is simply the weasel words. Everyone knows what Good is. Everyone knows what Chaos is. But people rarely _agree_ on the definitions. This is what a GM is for. (ie: to railroad) It&#8217;s your sandbox, set the definitions.</p>
<p>Any campaign should include a simple primer on what (for the world) constitutes the alignments. This way people can actually choose their role knowledgeably (What? you mean conversion by the sword, then immediate murder to prevent rescidivism isn&#8217;t Good?)and can play it. If they want to violate their roles, fine, sometimes that can be dramatic role-playing. Oh! The towering angst and self-loathing! Those boundaries can serve wonderful purposes. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a thumbnail (only) of how I usually set it for my players:</p>
<p>Lawful: believes orderliness is the fundamental virtue, big on hierarchy, obedience, following rules</p>
<p>Good: acts to promote the well-being (weal) for as many as possible, reluctant to kill, harm, or destroy unless it clearly improves the lot of many more than it harms, or is in plain self-defence against aggression.</p>
<p>Chaos: champions freedoms, small and large. Disrespectful of rigid legalistic mechanisms that strangle life into mere existence. </p>
<p>Evil: happy to gratify self at the expense of others. Often expresses as greed, unethical ambitions, or delight in the destruction of others.</p>
<p>=-=</p>
<p>I find this arrangement easy and simple and it leads to some interesting dynamics. Lawful cultures should tend to grow larger than chaotic ones, as agriculture and sanitation are very bound to order. Good cultures should out-populate evil ones since promoting the weal of many should bulk up the crowd quicker than just looking out for number one. With very little stretching you get a passable medieval knock-off world; stable peace-loving realms which grow about as well as technology, magic, and the forces of nature will allow; several colourful dashes of misfits, tinkers, highwaymen, hobos, freebooters, gypsies, circus people, dastards, and elves; and a reasonably large but not overwhelming evil empire to oppose. </p>
<p>If you can&#8217;t make heroic fantasy out of that, you&#8217;re not trying.</p>
<p>If the players can&#8217;t make sense of it, write it out. They have to know the world if they&#8217;re going to pretend to live in it. Alignment helps. It&#8217;s unrealistic, but it&#8217;s a crib that works, if you put a little effort in.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-25888</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/#comment-25888</guid>
		<description>Stormbringer nailed it.  I would also point out the beginning of the book which states &quot;the DM is always right&quot;.  Having also played for 30 years now I still remember the first time I introduced spell abilities in a warrior at first level.  It was similar to the orc that had 30HPs and could cast spells.  PCs freaked out, it was new, unstructured, and it was fun.  Over the years the multitude of editions and other games have really just added and manipulated things that many of us have been doing since the books had wicked looking demons idols on the covers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stormbringer nailed it.  I would also point out the beginning of the book which states &#8220;the DM is always right&#8221;.  Having also played for 30 years now I still remember the first time I introduced spell abilities in a warrior at first level.  It was similar to the orc that had 30HPs and could cast spells.  PCs freaked out, it was new, unstructured, and it was fun.  Over the years the multitude of editions and other games have really just added and manipulated things that many of us have been doing since the books had wicked looking demons idols on the covers.</p>
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		<title>By: Arrixxia</title>
		<link>http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-24773</link>
		<dc:creator>Arrixxia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2007 05:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/#comment-24773</guid>
		<description>Stormbringer i couldn&#039;t agree more. It&#039;s a game that has a framework of ideas with which to base each of our gaming stories upon. the same holds true for every pen and paper rpg. Call them rules if you wish, but they are not laws, written in stone by the gods on high. Rules Lawyers usually last about 2 sessions in my games before they realize power gaming is not encouraged and it is more fun to try something spectacular and fail than it is to constantly beat up bad guys in 2 turns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stormbringer i couldn&#8217;t agree more. It&#8217;s a game that has a framework of ideas with which to base each of our gaming stories upon. the same holds true for every pen and paper rpg. Call them rules if you wish, but they are not laws, written in stone by the gods on high. Rules Lawyers usually last about 2 sessions in my games before they realize power gaming is not encouraged and it is more fun to try something spectacular and fail than it is to constantly beat up bad guys in 2 turns.</p>
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		<title>By: Stormbringer</title>
		<link>http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-24676</link>
		<dc:creator>Stormbringer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/#comment-24676</guid>
		<description>Wow, where to begin?
I&#039;ve been playing AD&amp;D for 30 years and it seems to me that everyone here is completely missing the point. Does anyone remember the brilliant blurb at the back of the 1st Ed. DMG that says (and I&#039;m paraphrasing here) &quot;The story is what matters. If the rules get in the way, then FORGET THEM&quot;.
All this whiny crap about alignments and classes and blah-blah-blah is ridiculous. AD&amp;D has lasted for so long because you can pick-and-choose what you want and ignore the rest. 
If you want to play, play. If you don&#039;t then don&#039;t. But please stop blathering on and on.
Now where are my dice? I&#039;ve got PC&#039;s to kill........</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, where to begin?<br />
I&#8217;ve been playing AD&amp;D for 30 years and it seems to me that everyone here is completely missing the point. Does anyone remember the brilliant blurb at the back of the 1st Ed. DMG that says (and I&#8217;m paraphrasing here) &#8220;The story is what matters. If the rules get in the way, then FORGET THEM&#8221;.<br />
All this whiny crap about alignments and classes and blah-blah-blah is ridiculous. AD&amp;D has lasted for so long because you can pick-and-choose what you want and ignore the rest.<br />
If you want to play, play. If you don&#8217;t then don&#8217;t. But please stop blathering on and on.<br />
Now where are my dice? I&#8217;ve got PC&#8217;s to kill&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Tanstaafl</title>
		<link>http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-24675</link>
		<dc:creator>Tanstaafl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 03:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cineris.org/blog/2006/10/01/dd-4th-edition/#comment-24675</guid>
		<description>Looks like this wish list happened for 4th edition... Three out of three.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like this wish list happened for 4th edition&#8230; Three out of three.</p>
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